Hop Bets On Craps Table
- I got my housemates into Craps. We quickly out grew the little table that we bought that could only support 4 people kinda. This is now our craps table mark III. It can support up to 10 people. I want to some side bets to the table. I'm thinking HOP bets, but if you know any other cool side bets let me know. Craps table build.
- A bet on or roll of 12, also see boxcars hop A single roll bet for a specific combination of dice to come out. Pays 15:1 for easy ways and 30:1 for hard ways horn A divided bet on the 2, 3, 11, 12 horn high A horn bet with addition units going to a specific number.
- The house edge for the easy hop bets include a 5.56% house edge for 16:1 payouts, a 11.11% house edge for 15:1 payouts, and a 16.67% house edge for 14:1 payouts. The house edge on hop bets are pretty bad, especially when a casino is stingy with its payoffs. In many cases, hop bets are sucker bets.
There are dozens of craps bets advertised right on the table felt - wagers including pass and don't pass, come and don't come, place numbers, the field, hardways, one-roll propositions. Hop bets are prime offering on craps' secret menu. There's not a space on the layout to illustrate them. You have to know they're available to make them.
My basic play at the craps table is to play table minimum with 3/4/3 odds. At a $5 table, I'll lay DP odds of $18 on the 6 & 8, $30 (max odds) on 4/5/9/10. It's not a spectacularly busy play - I can sometimes sit there for more than a few rolls while a point resolves itself - but it works for me. Like any other plan for the craps table, it's a proven loser. I still have a good time and win a bit once in a while.
I'm considering combining the two as a sort of doey/don't strategy - bet a minimum bet on the hop-sevens but only on the come-out roll.
I've never placed a hop bet in my life. At a $5 table, can you place a $1 hop bet with a $5 pass/don't bet, or does each hop bet need to be $5?
Edit: I suppose I've played at tables where the minimum was actually lower than $1, e.g. the quarters table at Binions, but no, the line bet limit is not the same as the hop bet limit.
I haven't been able to find any Craps software that has all of the hop bets available.
Any suggestions there?
I'll work on my own Excel simulator some more and play with $1 bets on the hop-sevens.
Every table I've ever played (granted, up to only $25 minimums) the hop bets were $1. I'd assume there's a point where that changes, but I don't play many hop bets and I don't play bigger tables. For any dice dealers: what's the hop minimum on a $100 or $500 table?
Edit: I suppose I've played at tables where the minimum was actually lower than $1, e.g. the quarters table at Binions, but no, the line bet limit is not the same as the hop bet limit.
Yeah, I've had the same experiences. While at a $25 table once, I think I actually asked a dealer if at the $100 minimum table, the minimum on the center bets went up to $5. I believe he said no, even at the $100 min. table, you could book any inside prop bet (including hops) for just $1.
So if that recollection and dealer are both correct, it might go up at a $500 or $1000 table, but not a $100.
On a craps table, all the stuff in the middle (which I have on more than one occasion heard a stickman refer to as 'The junk in the middle') can be considered side bets.
Yeah, you can make Hop bets (and everything else in the middle) for less than the table minimum.
Note: As I've mentioned more than once, (and have been quotes as saying): Whenever a casino allows you to make a bet for less than the table minimum, ask yourself 'Why?'
Generally, table games with high house edge side bets allow the side bets to be placed at a price lower than the table minimum.
On a craps table, all the stuff in the middle (which I have on more than one occasion heard a stickman refer to as 'The junk in the middle') can be considered side bets.
Yeah, you can make Hop bets (and everything else in the middle) for less than the table minimum.
Note: As I've mentioned more than once, (and have been quotes as saying): Whenever a casino allows you to make a bet for less than the table minimum, ask yourself 'Why?'
Oh, there's no doubt it's a bad bet on its own. As a hedge vs. a DP wager, though...
On a $5 table:
On the come out roll, bet $5 DP + $3 on the hop-sevens (maybe throw a fourth $1 at the hop 11?).
Point established? Lost $3 (maybe 4), make odds wager (even money bet).
7(11) rolled? Win $15 + original bet for a gain of $7 $6 if you played the eleven, too).
2 or 3 win you $1 or $2(lose hops, win on the DP), 12 pushes on the DP so you'd lose $3-4 on the hops.
I think I'll have to simulate this in Excel, as WinCraps does not seem to support hops bets.
That is no longer the practice. Even at $25 tables $1 bets are okay for middle of the table and hop bets.
For $25 tables, each prop bet follows the same rules as above, but must be a $5 minimum. I haven't played higher denominations, but I would guess at a $100 minimum the prop would go up to $25.
As AlanMendelson pointed out, Caesar's is apparently allowing $1 props on $25 tables, so I guess YMMV. I know Vegas properties are for the most part a lot more relaxed on a lot of rules than where I generally play. For example, most places I've played will not allow a $10 place 6/8, while Vegas just doesn't seem to care.
Also, in reference to Genious's proposition, depending on the distribution of the rest of the rolls in his supposed 5:1 sevens ratio, it would probably be best to stick with lay bets (whichever one would give the best HE after factoring in the new distributions) as they would have much less volatility than hopping the 7s and also have a much lower HE to have to overcome.
Oh, there's no doubt it's a bad bet on its own. As a hedge vs. a DP wager, though...
Hedge?I'll just refer you to the Wizard's 'The Ten Commandments of Gambling'
Hop Bets On Craps Table
Thou shalt not hedge thy bets.
Hedge bets usually carry a high house edge. For example, never take insurance in blackjack and never bet the any craps or any seven in craps. Exceptions can be made for insuring life changing amounts of money.
My experience has been that at $5, $10, or $15 tables, they will allow $1 prop bets, as long as you have a table minimum non-prop bet elsewhere. If you have no non-prop bets, then either you may not make a prop bet at all, or the prop bet must be table minimum.
Good point.Of course, they'll often let you get away with it with the expectation that you'll be betting after a point is established, etc.
Also, another notable exception, they'll always let you put $1 on the FireBet, with no other bet. But that too is with the expectation that you'll start betting after a point is established.
Also, another notable exception, they'll always let you put $1 on the FireBet, with no other bet. But that too is with the expectation that you'll start betting after a point is established.
Just over a week ago, I was in Tunica, MS. Dealers at the Harrah's there (and maybe some of the other casinos I visited) would not allow Fire bets to be placed at all unless the player had a line bet down at the same time. Of course, once the fire bet is in play, I don't suppose they could require you to keep betting on future come out rolls.
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Playing a 'Hopping 7Â’s' Progression
By Jerry 'Stickman'
Periodically people ask me about craps betting systems. Almost all of them rely on the premise that certain numbers are due because they havenÂ’t appeared for a while. I normally tell them that in a random you cannot beat the math of the game. The house edge is the house edge. In the long term you will lose the amount of money played times the house edge.
For many that is enough, but every so often someone says they have won a lot of money on a particular system and want me to look further into it. So periodically I will devote an article to exploring some of these systems.
This article will look at a 'Hopping 7Â’s' progression.
Here is the system as it was stated to me.
- Start over with each new shooter.
- Wait seven rolls before starting the progression
- When the bet hits, take the bet down along with the win.
- Start with a $3 bet. Starting with the first bet, the progression is: 3, 3, 6, 9, 15, 24, 39, etc. always adding the previous two bets together to determine the next bet in the progression.
Here is a table that shows the bet, amount invested, win amount (taking the bet down), and profit.
What we have here is a Fibonacci progression. This and the Martingale progression are well known in betting systems. In 'up as you lose' progressions, the thought is that when your number hits you will recoup your losses and garner a little profit. The Fibonacci progression is the less aggressive of the two.
Either of these progressions works as long as two things are true. The first is you must have adequate bankroll to make it through the inevitable losing streaks you will encounter. The amount you require can be very substantial. The last row in the above table represents the 17th roll without a 7. While 17 rolls without a 7 appearing may be somewhat unusual, it is not that uncommon.
If the shooter goes 20 rolls without a 7 appearing, the bankroll required is almost $2,000.
If the shooter rolls just five more numbers without throwing a 7, the total invested is over $20,000.
And what is the shooter is extremely lucky and throws just 5 more numbers without a 7? Our hapless system player will have just over $225,000 invested.
If he should win on the 30th roll, he will win $233,000+, so maybe he thinks it is worth it.
If our lucky shooter goes five more rolls without a 7, however, the investment skyrockets to almost $2.5 million. I donÂ’t know about you, but if I had that kind of money, I wouldnÂ’t risk it on a craps game.
The second consideration before using this system is something called table maximum. Virtually every craps game has a maximum bet ranging from $2,000 and up. Most of them are $10,000 or less. That means in the unusual but very possible case of someone going 25 rolls without a 7, this player is out his entire investment of over $20,000 and he cannot continue.
The math of the hop bet says that a player will lose 11.11 percent of all money wagered on a random shooter. That is what the math says. LetÂ’s see what some simulations say. I ran several simulations specifying a random shooter through an excellent software program called Smart Craps from DeepNet Technologies.
The first simulation did not put any limits on the maximum bet. It assumed an unlimited bankroll and no maximum bet limit at the craps table. It was very interesting watching the running edge percentage as the simulation progressed. For the first several seconds the expectation was a little over 103%. This means that if someone were playing this system and had the same results as the simulation, they would more than double their bets!
This came to an abrupt halt after about 96,000 rounds. At this point the simulation terminated because it couldn’t handle the size of the bet being placed – over 2.2 billion dollars. It may have taken a while, but the long term hit at about 96,000 player rounds.
Next I put some limits on maximum bet size. I started with 1.1 billion dollars. If the simulation hit the limit, it would restart the progression; that is, wait for seven rolls without a 7, then begin betting the progression. After 10 million rounds, the expectation was 59 percent for the house! During the 10 million rounds the $1.1 billion limit was reached 7 times. This was much worse than what the math would indicate, but with such a large limit, the long term had most likely not yet been reached.
Three more simulations were run with limits of $10,000, $3,000 and $2,000. The results more closely matched the mathematical expectations.
As you can see, all of these fell much closer to the calculated expectations.
So what does this show? You may be lucky and win for a period of time. You may even win for a long period of time. You could also be very unlucky and lose very big for a while. Eventually, however the math will catch up with you.
In the long run, you cannot beat the math of the game with random shooters. You will lose the house edge of your bets times the amount bet. Accept the fact and bet the low house edge bets. Your bankroll will thank you.
May all your wins be swift and large and all your losses slow and tiny.
Jerry 'Stickman' is an expert in craps, blackjack and video poker and advantage slot machine play. He is a regular contributor to top gaming magazines. The 'Stickman' is also a certified instructor for Golden Touch Craps and Golden Touch Blackjack. For more information visit www.goldentouchcraps.com or www.goldentouchblackjack.com or call 1-886-738-3423. You can contact Jerry 'Stickman' at stickmanGTC@aol.com